Join the discussion with Rich, Janel, Patricia Robinett, and Marilyn MIlos

L. Janel Martin wrote:
Marilyn,

Do you know of studies and stats on the incidence of violence against women comparing circ'd and uncirc'd men? Domestic violence, men in prison, etc?

Marilyn answered:
No, Janel, as far as I know, those studies have never been done. It's about time, doncha think?!

Love, Marilyn

Janel wrote to Marilyn, Rich, and Patricia Robinett:
So, how can we say we are more violent because of circ if there's no "proof". And humans apparently have been brutal forever ... I can't help but think the circ actually docilates men from being the fierce warriors they were. Definitely, as men have become civilized over time, uncir'd men are kinder maybe as Patricia said on the air and it's still true that circ'ing has added a whole new dimension to the brain of the modern man.


Rich:
Here's my take: MGM teaches fear and rage. The rage is suppressed. The fear causes passivity and disempowerment in the face of "authority"thus promoting mass social organization (i.e. warmaking). The rage can come to the surface either at the direction of authorities (torture etc) or in the absence of authority figures (i.e. when with friends and family). Sexual frustration, domestic difficulties and the link between sex and violence makes lovers especially vulnerable.

Marilyn Milos:

Hi Janel,

Karl Menninger said, "What we do to children, they will do to society." It's the infliction of a primal wound that affects the male throughout life. And, of course, not all circumcised males are violent, but every circumcised male is affected by his circumcision, whether he knows it or not. Sometimes, as Michel Odent has spoken about at a couple of my symposia, when excruciating pain is inflicted without the victim being able to fight or flee, the fight or flight hormones, without an outlet for expression, become destructive to the victim's own body. This is the genesis of "learned helplessness."

After Obama was elected, one Black, circumcised man said to me, "Obama must be intact. Look at his kind, gentle nature, his easy smile, his mellow demeanor. He's too relaxed a man to have been circumcised." There is a difference, too, with intact boys, who don't have the edge their circumcised brothers have. Now, I know there are other reasons for males to act out or be aggressive. Look at non-circumcising Germany; yet, we know the needs of German babies was not met. Infants were kept separate, by themselves, to cry it out... Alice Miller, of course, talks about the horrific ways in which German babies and children were raised and how it adversely affected them, how easily they became soldiers who followed orders.

According to James DeMeo and James Prescott, humans haven't always been violent. The earliest cave drawings showed peaceful societies, breastfeeding mothers, man and animal living together without harm. DeMeo claims that it was the desertification in sub-Saharan Africa that introduced hunger and then the fighting began. First, the fight was against the animals and then it was man against man. Perhaps we'll never really know what happened at the dawn of civilization, but we do know that when we birth babies peacefully and answer the needs of our children, they will thrive not just survive, and, isn't that our work, i.e., to work toward making the planet a peaceful place again by how we bring our children into the world? For, as Gandhi said, "If we are ever to have real peace, we must begin with the children."

With love and appreciation, Marilyn


Patricia:
hmm... that's interesting, janel.
i think that circumcision could go either way...
either to 'cow' the person or to enrage her/him
like an angry bull. :)

i personally do not think that humans -- men --
are created angry, violent, or withdrawn... i think
the 'personality' is made -- perhaps a carryover
from another lifetime, but you can always see
good 'reasons' why people are the way they are
from just this lifetime... .

i think this is an important discussion.

not all people will respond in the same way to 'fear'
(lack of love). but still, 'fear' (tension) will reign
in that person's life, rather than 'love' (ease)
when one is overpowered... when a person feels
powerless, they are as far from their true nature
as it is possible for them to get.

i think of the causes of trauma as anything that
overpowers another... circumcision, sexual abuse,
the birth process itself, rape, physical violence,
mental oppression, and so on. people hold the
'less than love' in their bodies and are chronically
tense.

from my humble observation, it appears that
there are three primary modes that traumatized
people will enter. they are all coping strategies for
protecting oneself from abusive 'authority figures':

1) acquiesce to authority (withdraw, hide)
2) rail against authority (attack)
3) BECOME the authority (join them)

no one who has been abused really trusts authority.
they all see authority as dangerous.

a psychologist i know here in town has done a study...
he says only 5% of the population is 'violence-prone'
or 'warmongers'... i would call 'violence-proneness'
or 'warmongering', symptoms of sociopathy.

circumcision is a violent act.
it teaches violence.
it teaches people to circumcise.
a circumcising culture is a violent culture.

people pass the violence on that was done to them.
or they bury their heads in the sand...
or they fight for the rights of children.

thank you all for fighting for children's rights.

love, patricia


What do you think?